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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 20:06:17 GMT -5
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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 20:11:13 GMT -5
TORONTO (AP) -- Blue Jays manager John Gibbons and pitcher Ted Lilly got into an argument -- and possibly a fight -- after Gibbons removed the pitcher from Monday night's game against the Oakland Athletics.
Gibbons argued with Lilly on the mound and later in the tunnel leading to the clubhouse after the pitcher left the game. A team trainer and a few players raced down the stairs of the tunnel after Gibbons followed Lilly. A television camera later showed Gibbons with a bloody nose.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 20:13:56 GMT -5
interesting season this has been indeed.
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Post by aaronhillfan on Aug 21, 2006 20:14:33 GMT -5
I got 3 words for Lilly...Designated for assigment
Personally, I don't care what his excuse is or what the consequences for the staff is the rest of the way. This guy is a bozo and he needs to go.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 20:14:41 GMT -5
let's not be hasty to place blame. we'll here more in the coming days.
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Post by fmradioguy on Aug 21, 2006 20:35:01 GMT -5
 This team is in total disarray. 1) Lilly has no business arguing with his manager out on the mound. If the manager wants to take the ball, you give up the ball and talk about it after the game. If he punched the manager, he's gone. 2) Gibbons will be seen as having no control over this team. On the basis of two major confrontations with two different players alone, I'd have to let him go if I was JP. If he punched Lilly at some point back in the dressing room, I would say it’s past the point of no return. That's not how you command respect from other players. 3) If he continues to stand behind Gibbons, this will reflect poorly on JP. You have to believe, given the investment the Jays have made this year and its attempt to be seen as a serious organization in the eyes of fans and players around MLB, that the last thing the team wants is all the controversy of the last month. I've had more than a few moments of embarrassment as a Jays fan this season. |
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 20:37:43 GMT -5
It's too early to know anything, other than that Lilly was an buttocks on the mound.
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Post by robinhood on Aug 21, 2006 20:42:17 GMT -5
Start Cleaning house JP. If you don't, your buttocks is next. Lilly should be suspended and Gibbons Fired. I say Managers Job Should be Given to Ernie Whitt for rest of this year.
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qwyjibo
Registered Member
Posts: 22
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Post by qwyjibo on Aug 21, 2006 20:53:01 GMT -5
Boy am I glad JP decided to hang onto Lilly and Speier at the deadline  Now not only will Speier leave for nothing, Lilly will be put on waivers, claimed by some playoff bound team and the Jays will at best get an A-ball prospect in return. |
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Post by firstrounder on Aug 21, 2006 20:55:56 GMT -5
Well, now we know that Gibby started the fight: "After Gibbons gave the ball to reliever Jason Frasor, he followed Lilly down the tunnel and went at him according to Canadian Press photographer Aaron Harris, one of a handful of photographers to witness the incident.
The two began wrestling, clutching at each others shirts before security and several Blue Jays players jumped in to break it up.
Lilly remained in the Blue Jays clubhouse afterwards while Gibbons returned to the dugout.
A team official said Lilly would meet with the media after the game." www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/article.jsp?content=20060821_204113_4260 |
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Post by mookie52 on Aug 21, 2006 20:58:12 GMT -5
Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first. A television camera later showed Gibbons with a bloody nose.
Canadian Press photographer Aaron Harris, one of a handful of photographers to witness the skirmish, said Lilly was waiting for Gibbons in the tunnel.
"Gibbons just went at him," Harris said.
Harris said they went nose to nose.
"It looked like Gibbons grabbed him and they disappeared," Harris said. "Then the whole dugout emptied back there. It was mayhem down in the tunnel."
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qwyjibo
Registered Member
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Post by qwyjibo on Aug 21, 2006 20:58:22 GMT -5
" he followed Lilly down the tunnel and went at him"
That doesn't say much. He had full right to "go at him"... it just depends on who threw the first punch or started the physical altercation.
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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 20:58:31 GMT -5
1) Lilly has no business arguing with his manager out on the mound. If the manager wants to take the ball, you give up the ball and talk about it after the game. If he punched the manager, he's gone.
2) Gibbons will be seen as having no control over this team. On the basis of two major confrontations with two different players alone, I'd have to let him go if I was JP. If he punched Lilly at some point back in the dressing room, I would say it’s past the point of no return. That's not how you command respect from other players. Remember what Shea said? Gibbons challenged him to hit him and Gibbons didn't deny it, but only that Shea didn't stand up to him or something like that... I'm thinking he issued a similar challenge to Lilly. Only Lilly took him up on it. |
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:00:04 GMT -5
Lets see now....
Bush...
Hillenbrand...
Wells wants out....
Lilly....
And some of your ding dongs think that Gibbons is a good manager.
Looks like his tough guy routine got called and Lilly kicked his buttocks.
Good.
Get this Moron and the GM that hired him the HELL out of here NOW!
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Post by firstrounder on Aug 21, 2006 21:00:19 GMT -5
" he followed Lilly down the tunnel and went at him" That doesn't say much. He had full right to "go at him"... it just depends on who threw the first punch or started the physical altercation. are you serious? You dont think there is anything wrong with this picture? |
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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 21:01:37 GMT -5
VIDEO of the mound incident is at this link, for those that haven't seen it MLB.com Lilly and Gibbons exchange wordsThere's nothing really new in this story other than...
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qwyjibo
Registered Member
Posts: 22
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Post by qwyjibo on Aug 21, 2006 21:06:33 GMT -5
"You dont think there is anything wrong with this picture?"
To me it just depends on who threw the first punch. Lilly had no right to show up his manager on the mound after the garbage outing he had. His duty at that point should've been to shut the hell up, give up the ball and go to bench.
But he tried to show up his manager and Gibbons had full right to go after him in the dugout and see what was going on... now if he started the actual fight well then that's wrong.
I don't even care about eitehr Gibbons or Lilly. I'm still pissed that Lilly was even on the team when it was obvious the Jays would not be re-signing him after the year.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 21:11:24 GMT -5
It seems very possible that Lilly gave the Jays an 'F U' after Arnsberg came out, giving up 2 home runs. This would make me pissed off too.
and how do we know Wells isn't a malcontent himself, or is malcontent because of what JP said about him, which was pretty stupid? Don't know if we can blame Gibbons for that one.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:12:17 GMT -5
Wow.....
Shea was completely right.
They should change the name of this team to the Toronto Titanics.
I'm completely disgusted with the team. Regardless of WHO threw the first punch, you can't have a manager who is a loose cannon in your dugout. The most important factor is your ability to manage personalities.... Gibbons doesn't have this ability, and he obviously doesn't command the respect of his players.
TWO physical confrontations with two different players points to a complete lack of personal control. Even if Lilly and Shea are the biggest donkeys on the face of the planet, Gibbons is supposed to be the MANAGER of the team.
At the very least he should have the ability to walk away and avoid confrontations like this whenever they arise. Unfortunately he thinks this is the WWF and wants to fight guys.
What a freaking disgrace and moron.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 21:14:32 GMT -5
We'll see how this plays out.
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Post by fmradioguy on Aug 21, 2006 21:28:19 GMT -5
At the very least he should have the ability to walk away and avoid confrontations like this whenever they arise. No, there was no way to avoid confrontation here. Gibbons had every right to talk to Lilly about that stunt on the mound and if he hadn't, Gibbons would have no business being in any sort of managerial situation. The concern, however, is that the confrontation happened in the first place. Again, an isolated incident is one thing. But given the Shea conflict and a sense that there may be more going on on this team than we know (that odd Rios-Wells video comes to mind), not to mention a game like the one played tonight, and it does seem that things are in chaos. Unfortunately, the manager is the one individual that must be held accountable for that. I like Gibbons but something needs to be done. I'm not so sure pruning the bad branches alone will suffice at this point. |
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Post by bigbadbluebird on Aug 21, 2006 21:28:25 GMT -5
Lets see now.... Bush... Hillenbrand... Wells wants out.... Lilly.... And some of your ding dongs think that Gibbons is a good manager. Looks like his tough guy routine got called and Lilly kicked his buttocks. Good. Get this Moron and the GM that hired him the HELL out of here NOW! Gibbons pretty much just punched his ticket out of Toronto - pun intended. But Lilly is as much to blame for this as Gibbons is. He was looking for a fight on the mound. Low class move by both individuals, neither of which should be on this team for very much longer. It isnt exactly as if it is unprecidented for a manager to pull his starter early when said starter is pitching like crap. |
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Post by Awesomeness Reeker on Aug 21, 2006 21:32:34 GMT -5
In short, Shea was right, Lilly's still a pile of junk and Gibbons is infact the moron I hadn't thought he was until tonight.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:44:38 GMT -5
At the very least he should have the ability to walk away and avoid confrontations like this whenever they arise. No, there was no way to avoid confrontation here. Gibbons had every right to talk to Lilly about that stunt on the mound and if he hadn't, Gibbons would have no business being in any sort of managerial situation. The concern, however, is that the confrontation happened in the first place. Again, an isolated incident is one thing. But given the Shea conflict and a sense that there may be more going on on this team than we know (that odd Rios-Wells video comes to mind), not to mention a game like the one played tonight, and it does seem that things are in chaos. Unfortunately, the manager is the one individual that must be held accountable for that. I like Gibbons but something needs to be done. I'm not so sure pruning the bad branches alone will suffice at this point. The mound confrontation is one thing, but chasing Lilly down the tunnel and shoving him is something completely different. Completely avoidable. Gibbons is obviously a hot head in the mold of Lou Pinella, however the problem is that he doesn't have the respect of his players. Well at least now that Lilly gave Gibby a nosebleed instead of backing down (like Shea) Gibbons can't call him a coward like he did Shea. |
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Post by manuel 3:16 on Aug 21, 2006 21:47:07 GMT -5
It looked to me like Gibbons provoked the whole thing by shouting at Lilly on his way out to the mound. Lilly actually looked surprised before he started talking back.
Gibbons needs to understand that you don't get anywhere by scrapping your own players. I suspect he'll learn that lesson really soon.
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