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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 21:47:10 GMT -5
Would firing him immediately be viewed as a panic move or something that had to be done? Gibbons, not Lilly. I think he's lost control of the team and they still have a chance for a decent finish.
Ya think Lilly would make it through waivers?
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:56:19 GMT -5
The point is that Lilly's value has been completely squandered.
If he's released, does the team still get picks if he's signed elsewhere. If not, you're better just to send him home and pay his salary for the last month of the year.
Too bad he wasn't moved when he had max value.... however, I don't expect shrewd moves from this team anymore.
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Post by fmradioguy on Aug 21, 2006 21:58:46 GMT -5
"chasing Lilly down the tunnel and shoving him" is speculative. I haven't heard he started shoving him. They had a tussle and we don't know who began the physical aspect yet. I agree, if Gibbons initiated physical contact, even greater fault falls at his feet. But we don't know what happened exactly. But again, Gibbons was well within his right to follow Lilly and confront him over what happened on the mound. The problem is it apparently turned violent.
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Post by willrain on Aug 21, 2006 22:03:15 GMT -5
Well....well well well.
First impressions:
1. Ted the tease is no longer worth it, if we could give him the bum's rush and just save a million or so it'd be fine with me. One would think if you could get him down the waiver list as far as a contender you could get something of value. But I would not be adverse to that "suspended without pay" idea either - see how that affects ye olde free agent contract Teddy.
2. I DO think Gibbons HAD to confront Ted about showing him up....if he hadn't lost the team before he surely would have if he had let him get by with that.
3. that said, I don't see how a managerial position can survive the impression that the team is spinning out of control - sort of a monumental winning streak that shows no signs of appearing. Gibby will be supported for now, but I'm as certain as can be he won't be here next year.
4. there is a SMALL outside chance that if JP were to go to the wall for Gibby, that upper management might use that as leverage to get him out too....but if I were a basher I would not get my hopes up.
5. Confrontations with players aside, even I, the eternal optomist, have become convinced over the last 3-4 weeks that there is SOME thing fundamentally wrong with this team - and it's not "on paper" talant....there's some intangable that's off the beam, and it may very well be some internal clubhouse thing concerning Gibby - to apply an imprecise phrase, he may indeed have "lost the team"...quite apart from the reaction to the attitude problems of two notorious malcontents.
6. OTOH, it's also possible that some players with poorer attitudes have "given up" and that gibbons is showing the signs of frusteration with players who are "playing for themselves" - I'm not sure an outsider can know, nor am I sure that even if that's true it's not still a negative reflection on gibbons.
7. wonder what Lou Pinella's got planned for next year?
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Post by fmradioguy on Aug 21, 2006 22:06:49 GMT -5
Yes Will! Exactly, point by point, what I've been saying, including point 4. I agree. A small chance this will be prove dire for JP but a feasible possibility nonetheless.
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Post by ws1992 on Aug 21, 2006 22:13:44 GMT -5
Ted Lilly has just joined a pretty crowded list: The official J.P. Ricciardi "Wasted Asset List". Instead of trading him at his peak value (which I suggested numerous times during the season), Ricciardi keeps Lilly and now this happens. If Lilly is released, that means not compensation draft picks. In other words, we lose another player for nothing. There's really no way to get out of this with much of a reward.
John Gibbons is just as much to blame. If he wants to challenge his players to fights, then it serves him right to get his buttocks handed to him by Lilly (if that's what in fact happened).
This is an embarrassment to the franchise (again). For god sakes, get Ricciardi, Gibbons, and this entire regime out of here before they sink this franchise even deeper. Enough is enough.
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Post by manuel 3:16 on Aug 21, 2006 22:16:56 GMT -5
Oh, man. Did you just blame JP for this?
Should you just trade all your players pre-emptively in case they get into a fight with the manager?
Lilly can be suspended for the rest of the season and still offered arbitration. The Jays will still get picks.
Yikes.
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Post by jaysmaniac on Aug 21, 2006 22:19:44 GMT -5
Gibbons needed to confront, but not blow his lid. Lilly was classless showing up his manager on the mound. Both at fault from the sound of things, bottom line, now what this team needed right now.
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Post by bigbadbluebird on Aug 21, 2006 22:24:55 GMT -5
I dont know if firing Gibbons immediately would be considered a panic move, but it certantly would give appearances that Lilly was in the right somehow.
The Jays should announce that Lilly has been sent home the same day Gibbons is fired.
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Post by tr0mbone on Aug 21, 2006 22:25:21 GMT -5
Well, Lilly took the blame according to his statement...
I can see a suspension for Lilly and perhaps a small one for Gibby if it turns out he provoked Lilly or hit him first.
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Post by ws1992 on Aug 21, 2006 22:25:37 GMT -5
Oh, man. Did you just blame JP for this? Should you just trade all your players pre-emptively in case they get into a fight with the manager? Lilly can be suspended for the rest of the season and still offered arbitration. The Jays will still get picks. Yikes. No, a GM should be smart enough to sell high on an overvalued asset before it crashes back down to earth. Ted Lilly is a mediocre pitcher. Always has been. A career 4.66 ERA and 97 ERA+ heading into his 30's. That's not something you hold on to when the chances for a playoff spot were never that great to begin with. Instead of trading him in a terrible market for pitchers (where he would of been overvalued), he was kept. Now this happens. If you think I'm suggesting that Ricciardi should of seen this fight coming before the deadline, then that's going into the realm of absurd. Of course he couldn't of seen the fight coming. With that said, Ricciardi deserves criticism for what happens under his watch. That's what happens in a management position. This isn't an isolated incident either. Gibbons and Lilly should share the blame in this case. As for suspending him and offering him arbitration after that, it might work. Lefty starters are in demand. But if Lilly gets released or let go, like I'm expecting, then it's a wasted asset. It was already wasted when it wasn't traded, but it'll be more wasted now.
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Post by manuel 3:16 on Aug 21, 2006 22:31:57 GMT -5
Ya, fair enough. I wonder though about how high Lilly's value was at any point this season. So what if his ERA is 3.90 in July... all the other GMs still know he's Ted Lilly.
People said the same thing about Shea all the time when he'd start off on a hot streak. No sane GM is going to over-pay for a player that WE all know is going to come crashing back to earth. I mean, if we know it's going to happen, they probably know it as well.
Anyway, it looks like both sides are smoothing things over right now and Lilly might stick around. Not the reaction I expected. I thought JP's knees would be jerking so fast that Lilly would be DFA'd by the 4th inning.
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mbow30
Registered Member
Posts: 25
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Post by mbow30 on Aug 21, 2006 22:38:54 GMT -5
Lilly's a dunghole, everybody knows that. But you can't have your manager getting into physical confrontations with his own players in the middle of a game, no less. Gibbons simply has to be fired now. Anything else is unacceptable.
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Post by firstrounder on Aug 21, 2006 22:42:31 GMT -5
Something's fishy about Lilly's statement to the media. Seems like he was told what to say or something by management.
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Post by tr0mbone on Aug 21, 2006 22:46:16 GMT -5
That wouldn't suprise me if it were true.
Man... Bengie has to remind Ted that he is indeed nasty, Arnsberg has to keep him focused, and now JP has to remind him that he is a free agent and he just puked his most recent interview.
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mbow30
Registered Member
Posts: 25
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Post by mbow30 on Aug 21, 2006 22:50:18 GMT -5
To be honest, I think that Accardo was a steal. To get a 22 year old arm of that calibre who is already a solid MLB'er is a pretty sweet trade-off for an overpaid pending free agent who usually sucks in the second half.
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axlsalinger
Registered Member
Power to the People
Posts: 20
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Post by axlsalinger on Aug 21, 2006 22:51:29 GMT -5
At least both Gibby and Lilly said the right things in their post-game comments (even though they're probably not true). Perhaps they can co-exist till the end of the season.
And stating how obvious it is now that they should have traded Lilly is ludicrous. Hindsight is always 20/20.
We all knew that the playoffs were a longshot, but you can't have a fire sale and get rid of everybody. Then you would have a real problem in the room. Getting rid of Show made sense because we have plenty of other relievers, and he wasn't getting the job done. Getting rid of Hinske made sense because he is a bench player with a ridiculous contract.
This was a team already in desperate need of 2 starters. There was no way they could have traded Ted Lilly.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:57:56 GMT -5
I called for movement in either direction.
Either acquire talent and make a push or divest yourself of your tradable assets and maximize their worth.
The Jays instead did nothing... which was the worst possible option.
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Post by tr0mbone on Aug 21, 2006 23:09:11 GMT -5
Was that the worst decision?
Had the Jays traded away their ML talent then this season and next would be garbage. If they trade their Minor League talent, they they are selling short the future.
By staying pat, the Jays can use their ML and Minor assets over the winter to help out next year and still keep our best prospects in the bank.
Staying pat basically threw the season... But I have to agree with JP on it because it's the best move for the future.
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mbow30
Registered Member
Posts: 25
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Post by mbow30 on Aug 21, 2006 23:21:37 GMT -5
Next year would be garbage if the team had traded Cat and Lilly on top of Shea? Come on. Nobody is saying they should deal Halladay, Burnett, Ryan, Wells, Rios, Johnson, etc. etc. These other guys are all free agents anyways and I wouldn't be surprising if all (including Molina) were let go without even receiving a contract offer.
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Post by TestSubjekt on Aug 21, 2006 23:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by gojays2007 on Aug 22, 2006 0:25:20 GMT -5
In the red corner at 1-1, John Gibbonnnnssssss.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 22, 2006 0:34:03 GMT -5
"I went to take a piss"
Classic line. Complete crap too. I have to remember this line, for future situations.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 22, 2006 0:40:43 GMT -5
Wow they must think we're all stupid.
Must have been one hell of a piss to make his nose bleed like that.... ouch.
I would have used poop as an excuse personally.....
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Post by robinhood on Aug 22, 2006 0:47:09 GMT -5
Wow they must think we're all stupid. Must have been one hell of a piss to make his nose bleed like that.... ouch. I would have used poop as an excuse personally..... Are you kidding? I heard he passed a Kidney stone!!!
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