Post by twominuteminor on Aug 21, 2006 21:53:41 GMT -5
I thought I'd bring you a new/old comparison & give you some food for thought.
66 vs 99
- It was the perfect setup for a great player. The Oilers had entered the NHL from the WHA and were destined to become winners whether they like it or not. We all watched and marveled as Wayne Gretzky and his Oilers dominated the 80s. In a diluted NHL where the trap had not yet put all the teams on even ground, the Oilers were head and shoulders above the rest. They had Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Fuhr, Lowe, Smith, and Tikkanen. Beukeboom, Semenko, and McSorley are all star goons and provided hall of fame protection. Backing up the future hall of fame, the Oilers, were quality role players such as Muni, Simpson, Huddy, Krushelynski and MacTavish. They were playing in the small Canadian city of Edmonton where the people had little expectations and therefore little pressure. Wayne had already played in a pro league the year before entering the NHL. Wayne took advantage of all of this and put together a career which now ranks as the most accomplished career in the NHL.
- Meanwhile Mario Lemieux would enter the NHL with one of the worst NHL teams ever, the year before the Penguins had the second most home losses for a team ever. Mario faced the pressure of saving the franchis. Not only was he the cure, he was a complete rehabilitation. He had no Kurri on his wing, he had Warren Young. That's right, the same Warren Young who had a 40 goal year and disappeared the next because he left the Pens, more specifically Mario. As one description put it, "they were a magic act, but Mario was the magician." Gretzky backers often point out that Mario didn't make his teammates better. Hey guys, take a look at Rob Brown and Warren Young and most of the time his wingers were even worse! I attended a Pens vs. Whalers game and met Mario and Tomas Sandstrom. I asked Tomas if he was going to get a hat trick and he replied "with Mario out there with you, anything is possible."
- Another factor when comparing the two is a bias that exists. Wayne has willingly become the spokesperson for hockey since entering the league. For this the NHL has used Gretzky as its' Marketing focal point. On the other hand Mario has done little promotion for the NHL. The NHL for this reason has bombarded fans with "Wayne is the best propaganda" throughout the 80s and 90s. We have heard numerous accounts of Wayne's charity work. I was suprised when one fan I met ever asked if Mario ever does any charity work. MArio has done as much charity work or more than Wayne has. In fact there is a Mario Lemieux foundation dedicated to raising money for cancer research. But this is underplayed because Mario isn't using it as an image enhancers. I'm not saying Wayne uses his charity work as an image enhancer, because he doesn't, but the charity work is publicized, so his image benefits. Wayne is going to win the popularity contests because he is a media figure. A prime example is Canada Cup 87. Mario scored a record 11 goals including 4 game winners. He had a hat trick in game 2 of the finals against Russia, with his third coming in the second OT. In game 3 he scored the dramatic winner with about less than 2 minutes left in the game. He finished with the second best point total ever for a Canada Cup of 18, to Gretzky's 21. Wayne was named tournament MVP. No argument here because Wayne was playing the best hockey his career would ever see. But can you imagine Wayne scoring a record number of goals, the winners in game 2 and 3 to win it for Canada and finishing with 18 points to Mario's 21 and NOT winning the MVP? That's right, you can't. So when matching the awards from the two players, you must take into account the bias that exists.
- Mario came out of the Canada Cup 87 with the confidence required to ascend the hockey throne. 87-88 saw Mario do just that. Wayne played 13 less games and had a higher PPG average, but take a look at the teams each played on and tell me Wayne was cheated. MArio played on the last place Pens, while Wayne played on the Cup champs. But Mario was singlehandedly trying to keep the Pens going. Late in the season, the Pens needed to win their last 2 games just to have a shot at the playoffs. In the first of those 2 games, the Pens went to OT with the Caps. With time ticking Mario grabbed the puck. He was near the goal but being hauled down by Larry Murphy. With a last ditch effort, Mario took the shot in the middle of his fall to the ice. GOAL!! The Pens took this confidence inspired by their leader and went on to win their next game but still missed the playoffs by a point. The next season saw Mario notch 199 points in 76 games and dismantle Gretzky, who was now on even ground with the Kings in the scoring race. Mario was beginning to think about rewriting the record books. After all, he had 199 points with Rob Brown and Bob Errey on his wings. His supporting cast was still made up of average or less than average players. He did have Paul Coffey, but that was it. Wayne picked up his 215 points in 80 games with the future hall of fame. Mario has almost the exact same stats with considerably less talent. Who knows what Mario would do with a good team? We would find out later on. All was set after 88-89 to have Mario run away as the best in the game until Mario's back became a major problem for the first time.
- Mario was on a 46 game scoring streak when he left a game against the Rangers in the second period to end the streak. Wayne's record was 51 games. This was symbolic in seeing an injury take away Mario's shot at Wayne's records. his back would keep him out for a while. But with the Pens needing a win to make the playoffs, Mario returned the last night of the season and played through pain. He was the best player on the ice and he notched a goal and an assist but his team failed to back him and the Pens lost to the Sabres 3-2 in OT. For those that say Mario puts himself above his team, try again. Wayne , who was still playing on a better team than Mario, won the scoring title with 142 points in 73 games to Mario's 123 in 59 games. Mario's PPG avg was superior despite the inferior team. Fans waited for Mario to get healthy and make a run at the records. It would never happen. Mario's surgery to correct his back pain had an after effect. An infection developed in the areas of his back that had been operated on. The effect was so painful that many doctors wondered if Mario would walk again. Mario spent the first of his recovery time in a wheelchair. Hockey was the furthest thing from his mind. In January, more than half the season gone, Mario was back! He would end the season on a positive as he won the Cup and posted the second highest points in the playoffs ever. Considering what he went through, it should rank #1. 91-92 saw Mario plagued by back pain. He only managed 64 games. Wayne played 74 but still lost 131 to 121 The injury to his back had Mario talking retirement. His second straight Conn Smythe trophy as the Pens claimed their second cup quieted that down. 92-93 opened with a bang as Mario scored the first goal of the entire season. He was on record pace until fate stepped in and would rob Mario of another year in his prime. Hodgkin's disease is a life threatening affliction, but Mario took it in stride and returned on March 2nd. He had a goal and an assist that night! He led the Pens to an NHL record 17 game winnning streak scoring 5 goals in the record breaking game. He won the scoring title with 160 points in only 60 games! This was Mario's prime on a great team. He finally showed was he was capable of. More back surgery followed that summer and it failed to have a positive effect. He played only 22 games and didn't seem the same. Besides back pain Mario quietly grieved when his wife has a miscarriage. But this was kept quiet. Anemia developed from the thinning of his blood from the radiation treatments. Mario suffering from emotional pain and mental pain was forced to take 94-95 off. But looking back through all the pains and injuries you will see Mario had his best seasons. Two back operations, a broken hand, anemia, and cancer, yet Mario won back to back Conn Smythe(second player ever), 2 scoring titles, a Hart Trophy, and a Masterson trophy during this time. Mario had his best years during his worst injuries.
- All the all time records are nice but they only mean Wayne is the most accomplished player of all time, not the best. For those of you that say the accomplishments mean he is the best, who do you think is the best defenseman of all time? That's right Bobby Orr. Yet take a look at the record book and you will see Paul Coffey ranks #1 in goals, assists, and points. Coffey won more cups than Orr. But is he the best of all time? No, Orr did things that no other D could. He accomplished so much in his career which was cut short by injury. This is the exact same state of the Mario vs. Wayne debate. But here the media influence has taken it's effect. When reading an article about Wayne's superiority in the Hockey News, it said "When is the last time you remember an animated hockey player?" But this is the media influence again. Back when Orr played you were recognized as a superior based on your talent as the NHL suffered from underexposure. Today a player must be recognizable as well as have talent.
- Mario is the more talented of the two. Mario is the better goal scorer. He can beat you with his wrist shot, slap shot, deke, or can pick his spot on the ice and put it in the open net. One on one he is the best ever! Wayne had an accurate shot but lacked the other dimensions of Mario's game. They are equal passers. Any pass Wayne can make Mario can make. Wayne has the superior passing stats from playing on superior teams. Mario is the better defensive player. If you argue, I suggest you watch the 91 and 92 playoff games which show Mario playing a 2 way game worthy of any Selke trophy winner. Mario even blocked shots! How many times has Wayne hit the ice to block shots? Mario is obviously the superior physical player. He has even dropped the gloves and when the game is on the line will take the body as well as receive it. Wayne has needed the protection to flourish. They are equal in hockey sense each anticipating where the puck is going and reach that spot first. Wayne has the advantage here because of his small size, it allowed him to sneak in undetected. But in the end this advanatage doesn't make up for all the other areas Mario beats him in. Simply put, Mario is the better hockey player. Bobby Orr put it best, "on pure talent, Mario is the best there is!"
- When comparing accomplishments, one has to look deeper than the paper. Anyone can read the fact that Mario had 44 points in 23 games in the 90-91 playoffs. But what makes this one of the greatest playoff performances ever is the fact that only half a year earlier, many wondered if Mario would ever walk again after back infection. Wayne's years in the playoffs hardly compare. The record books don't tell u these facts. Wayne's 50 goals in 39 games was phenomenal. But Mario's return from Cancer in 92-93 saw him score 27 goals and 24 assists for 51 points in a 16 game period! An average of over 3 points per game AFTER Hodgkin's disease! An accomplishment I believe is better than Wayne's 50 in 39 games. Once again though, a fact that cannot be found in the NHL record book. Wayne's 92 goals in 80 games during 81-82 campaign was awesome. But looking at Mario's 85 in 76 games in 88-89 is every bit as good considering the talent level when looking at the teams each player played on. Wayne fans will point out the myriad years Wayne has had large goal scoring seasons. But Wayne has only scored a goal a game or better in two seasons in his career. MArio has also done it twice during a much shorter career with a lot less talent. Mario's comebacks from injury are unbelievable accomplishments and are equal or better than Wayne's marvelous records a lot of times.
- Of the 599 games Mario has played 427 of them on the Pens teams that would only dream of the Cup and the players were substandard. 71% of his stats came with an undertalented team. Wayne has played 1044 of his 1173 games on teams which had enough stars and enough depth to be winners. 89% of his career, Wayne has played on teams better than what Mario has had supporting him. Wayne had a supporting cast to take away the focus on him somewhat. Mario flourished on his own. He was the main focus of the opposing teams defense as the Pens had no other stars to take the pressure off. In Mario's good years from 90-91 on, he has not had a season where he has been injury free.
- Not only has Mario had accomplishments greater than or equal to Wayne's, but he has done it while playing with lesser supporting cast for the majority of his career. The years in which he had a strong supporting cast, he has been plagued by injuries. This coupled with the fact that his is the more talented, more complete of the two support my claim that Mario is a better hockey player than Wayne.
66 vs 99
- It was the perfect setup for a great player. The Oilers had entered the NHL from the WHA and were destined to become winners whether they like it or not. We all watched and marveled as Wayne Gretzky and his Oilers dominated the 80s. In a diluted NHL where the trap had not yet put all the teams on even ground, the Oilers were head and shoulders above the rest. They had Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Fuhr, Lowe, Smith, and Tikkanen. Beukeboom, Semenko, and McSorley are all star goons and provided hall of fame protection. Backing up the future hall of fame, the Oilers, were quality role players such as Muni, Simpson, Huddy, Krushelynski and MacTavish. They were playing in the small Canadian city of Edmonton where the people had little expectations and therefore little pressure. Wayne had already played in a pro league the year before entering the NHL. Wayne took advantage of all of this and put together a career which now ranks as the most accomplished career in the NHL.
- Meanwhile Mario Lemieux would enter the NHL with one of the worst NHL teams ever, the year before the Penguins had the second most home losses for a team ever. Mario faced the pressure of saving the franchis. Not only was he the cure, he was a complete rehabilitation. He had no Kurri on his wing, he had Warren Young. That's right, the same Warren Young who had a 40 goal year and disappeared the next because he left the Pens, more specifically Mario. As one description put it, "they were a magic act, but Mario was the magician." Gretzky backers often point out that Mario didn't make his teammates better. Hey guys, take a look at Rob Brown and Warren Young and most of the time his wingers were even worse! I attended a Pens vs. Whalers game and met Mario and Tomas Sandstrom. I asked Tomas if he was going to get a hat trick and he replied "with Mario out there with you, anything is possible."
- Another factor when comparing the two is a bias that exists. Wayne has willingly become the spokesperson for hockey since entering the league. For this the NHL has used Gretzky as its' Marketing focal point. On the other hand Mario has done little promotion for the NHL. The NHL for this reason has bombarded fans with "Wayne is the best propaganda" throughout the 80s and 90s. We have heard numerous accounts of Wayne's charity work. I was suprised when one fan I met ever asked if Mario ever does any charity work. MArio has done as much charity work or more than Wayne has. In fact there is a Mario Lemieux foundation dedicated to raising money for cancer research. But this is underplayed because Mario isn't using it as an image enhancers. I'm not saying Wayne uses his charity work as an image enhancer, because he doesn't, but the charity work is publicized, so his image benefits. Wayne is going to win the popularity contests because he is a media figure. A prime example is Canada Cup 87. Mario scored a record 11 goals including 4 game winners. He had a hat trick in game 2 of the finals against Russia, with his third coming in the second OT. In game 3 he scored the dramatic winner with about less than 2 minutes left in the game. He finished with the second best point total ever for a Canada Cup of 18, to Gretzky's 21. Wayne was named tournament MVP. No argument here because Wayne was playing the best hockey his career would ever see. But can you imagine Wayne scoring a record number of goals, the winners in game 2 and 3 to win it for Canada and finishing with 18 points to Mario's 21 and NOT winning the MVP? That's right, you can't. So when matching the awards from the two players, you must take into account the bias that exists.
- Mario came out of the Canada Cup 87 with the confidence required to ascend the hockey throne. 87-88 saw Mario do just that. Wayne played 13 less games and had a higher PPG average, but take a look at the teams each played on and tell me Wayne was cheated. MArio played on the last place Pens, while Wayne played on the Cup champs. But Mario was singlehandedly trying to keep the Pens going. Late in the season, the Pens needed to win their last 2 games just to have a shot at the playoffs. In the first of those 2 games, the Pens went to OT with the Caps. With time ticking Mario grabbed the puck. He was near the goal but being hauled down by Larry Murphy. With a last ditch effort, Mario took the shot in the middle of his fall to the ice. GOAL!! The Pens took this confidence inspired by their leader and went on to win their next game but still missed the playoffs by a point. The next season saw Mario notch 199 points in 76 games and dismantle Gretzky, who was now on even ground with the Kings in the scoring race. Mario was beginning to think about rewriting the record books. After all, he had 199 points with Rob Brown and Bob Errey on his wings. His supporting cast was still made up of average or less than average players. He did have Paul Coffey, but that was it. Wayne picked up his 215 points in 80 games with the future hall of fame. Mario has almost the exact same stats with considerably less talent. Who knows what Mario would do with a good team? We would find out later on. All was set after 88-89 to have Mario run away as the best in the game until Mario's back became a major problem for the first time.
- Mario was on a 46 game scoring streak when he left a game against the Rangers in the second period to end the streak. Wayne's record was 51 games. This was symbolic in seeing an injury take away Mario's shot at Wayne's records. his back would keep him out for a while. But with the Pens needing a win to make the playoffs, Mario returned the last night of the season and played through pain. He was the best player on the ice and he notched a goal and an assist but his team failed to back him and the Pens lost to the Sabres 3-2 in OT. For those that say Mario puts himself above his team, try again. Wayne , who was still playing on a better team than Mario, won the scoring title with 142 points in 73 games to Mario's 123 in 59 games. Mario's PPG avg was superior despite the inferior team. Fans waited for Mario to get healthy and make a run at the records. It would never happen. Mario's surgery to correct his back pain had an after effect. An infection developed in the areas of his back that had been operated on. The effect was so painful that many doctors wondered if Mario would walk again. Mario spent the first of his recovery time in a wheelchair. Hockey was the furthest thing from his mind. In January, more than half the season gone, Mario was back! He would end the season on a positive as he won the Cup and posted the second highest points in the playoffs ever. Considering what he went through, it should rank #1. 91-92 saw Mario plagued by back pain. He only managed 64 games. Wayne played 74 but still lost 131 to 121 The injury to his back had Mario talking retirement. His second straight Conn Smythe trophy as the Pens claimed their second cup quieted that down. 92-93 opened with a bang as Mario scored the first goal of the entire season. He was on record pace until fate stepped in and would rob Mario of another year in his prime. Hodgkin's disease is a life threatening affliction, but Mario took it in stride and returned on March 2nd. He had a goal and an assist that night! He led the Pens to an NHL record 17 game winnning streak scoring 5 goals in the record breaking game. He won the scoring title with 160 points in only 60 games! This was Mario's prime on a great team. He finally showed was he was capable of. More back surgery followed that summer and it failed to have a positive effect. He played only 22 games and didn't seem the same. Besides back pain Mario quietly grieved when his wife has a miscarriage. But this was kept quiet. Anemia developed from the thinning of his blood from the radiation treatments. Mario suffering from emotional pain and mental pain was forced to take 94-95 off. But looking back through all the pains and injuries you will see Mario had his best seasons. Two back operations, a broken hand, anemia, and cancer, yet Mario won back to back Conn Smythe(second player ever), 2 scoring titles, a Hart Trophy, and a Masterson trophy during this time. Mario had his best years during his worst injuries.
- All the all time records are nice but they only mean Wayne is the most accomplished player of all time, not the best. For those of you that say the accomplishments mean he is the best, who do you think is the best defenseman of all time? That's right Bobby Orr. Yet take a look at the record book and you will see Paul Coffey ranks #1 in goals, assists, and points. Coffey won more cups than Orr. But is he the best of all time? No, Orr did things that no other D could. He accomplished so much in his career which was cut short by injury. This is the exact same state of the Mario vs. Wayne debate. But here the media influence has taken it's effect. When reading an article about Wayne's superiority in the Hockey News, it said "When is the last time you remember an animated hockey player?" But this is the media influence again. Back when Orr played you were recognized as a superior based on your talent as the NHL suffered from underexposure. Today a player must be recognizable as well as have talent.
- Mario is the more talented of the two. Mario is the better goal scorer. He can beat you with his wrist shot, slap shot, deke, or can pick his spot on the ice and put it in the open net. One on one he is the best ever! Wayne had an accurate shot but lacked the other dimensions of Mario's game. They are equal passers. Any pass Wayne can make Mario can make. Wayne has the superior passing stats from playing on superior teams. Mario is the better defensive player. If you argue, I suggest you watch the 91 and 92 playoff games which show Mario playing a 2 way game worthy of any Selke trophy winner. Mario even blocked shots! How many times has Wayne hit the ice to block shots? Mario is obviously the superior physical player. He has even dropped the gloves and when the game is on the line will take the body as well as receive it. Wayne has needed the protection to flourish. They are equal in hockey sense each anticipating where the puck is going and reach that spot first. Wayne has the advantage here because of his small size, it allowed him to sneak in undetected. But in the end this advanatage doesn't make up for all the other areas Mario beats him in. Simply put, Mario is the better hockey player. Bobby Orr put it best, "on pure talent, Mario is the best there is!"
- When comparing accomplishments, one has to look deeper than the paper. Anyone can read the fact that Mario had 44 points in 23 games in the 90-91 playoffs. But what makes this one of the greatest playoff performances ever is the fact that only half a year earlier, many wondered if Mario would ever walk again after back infection. Wayne's years in the playoffs hardly compare. The record books don't tell u these facts. Wayne's 50 goals in 39 games was phenomenal. But Mario's return from Cancer in 92-93 saw him score 27 goals and 24 assists for 51 points in a 16 game period! An average of over 3 points per game AFTER Hodgkin's disease! An accomplishment I believe is better than Wayne's 50 in 39 games. Once again though, a fact that cannot be found in the NHL record book. Wayne's 92 goals in 80 games during 81-82 campaign was awesome. But looking at Mario's 85 in 76 games in 88-89 is every bit as good considering the talent level when looking at the teams each player played on. Wayne fans will point out the myriad years Wayne has had large goal scoring seasons. But Wayne has only scored a goal a game or better in two seasons in his career. MArio has also done it twice during a much shorter career with a lot less talent. Mario's comebacks from injury are unbelievable accomplishments and are equal or better than Wayne's marvelous records a lot of times.
- Of the 599 games Mario has played 427 of them on the Pens teams that would only dream of the Cup and the players were substandard. 71% of his stats came with an undertalented team. Wayne has played 1044 of his 1173 games on teams which had enough stars and enough depth to be winners. 89% of his career, Wayne has played on teams better than what Mario has had supporting him. Wayne had a supporting cast to take away the focus on him somewhat. Mario flourished on his own. He was the main focus of the opposing teams defense as the Pens had no other stars to take the pressure off. In Mario's good years from 90-91 on, he has not had a season where he has been injury free.
- Not only has Mario had accomplishments greater than or equal to Wayne's, but he has done it while playing with lesser supporting cast for the majority of his career. The years in which he had a strong supporting cast, he has been plagued by injuries. This coupled with the fact that his is the more talented, more complete of the two support my claim that Mario is a better hockey player than Wayne.