Gibbons to be dismissed after tonight's game

[mbow30]

I don't even get why that should matter. What are people saying, ASh is an idiot for having one of the very best scouting staffs in baseball? What an idiot.. employing scouts who routinely produced star-quality players.

[firstrounder]

mbow is on to something. Gord Ash may have been the most incompetent GM in terms of baseball knowledge (he didnt even know how to calculate SLG% as of 5 years ago) but he definitely knew how to hire the right people in terms of scouting.

[manuel 3:16]

mbow30 said:

You can't argue against my point by totally disregaridng the crux of the argument.

I didn't disagree with the crux of your argument, which is why I didn't address it. As for JPs failure to produce middling talent with modest upside similar to Chacin, Reed and Davis Romero, I disagree completely. That's the one thing he's done fairly well, unfortunately. Time will tell if Lind, Snider, Ricky Romero et al belong in a different category.


Also, lets be careful not to give Ash too much credit for stars drafted by the scouting staff Pat Gillick left behind. A lot of the top-level talent drafted during the Ash regime is part of Gillick's legacy.

I was incredibly upset when Ricciardi took over and got rid of most of those guys. At the time, it seemed like a huge mistake and there's been very little since to change my mind.

[mbow30]

No, you took a part of my argument and put it out of context. I never said Riccardi was incapable of drafting middling prospects. The point was he hasn't come close to matching the talent nor the depth that Ash supplied the franchise with (and, in fact, continues to supply it with). The problem is, some of the best prospects he has drafted fit into that same middling category.

Also, lets be careful not to give Ash too much credit for stars drafted by the scouting staff Pat Gillick left behind. A lot of the top-level talent drafted during the Ash regime is part of Gillick's legacy.

Come on. This argument gets thrown about time after time after time. Ash, as assistant gm, was obviously allowed input into hirings. He did negotiating for the team. He retained these scouts in key positions. I guess we also shoudln't credit Gillick, sinc eit was all the csouts... who he hired.

It's ridiculous, the depths people go to in order to discredit some of the good things Gord Ash did.

[broadwayjoe2]

It really is....

Amazing how a guy managed to work his way up from the ticket office to the role of GM and he is a complete idiot according to some.

He wasn't the most saavy baseball guy, and wasn't a great GM by any stretch of the imagination... however he did manage to hire and retain many good baseball minds, and he was smart enough to recognize their ability and take advantage of such.

JP came in here.... guns a blazin... firing everyone in sight and replacing them with his lackeys.

The problem was that the people he fired were far brighter than those he brought in... leading to a complete lack scouting and drafting talent.

Doesn't it seem rather telling that this team has next to ZERO unrestricted latin free agents rising through the system? I don't expect the team to produce like they did during the days of Eppy Guerrero but I do expect some cheap talent to be found in this area.

We have nothing.

[gojays2007]

JP has been a giant disapointment. He's almost certantly going to be gone after next season

-When is his contract up?

[manuel 3:16]

mbow30 said:

No, you took a part of my argument and put it out of context. I never said Riccardi was incapable of drafting middling prospects. The point was he hasn't come close to matching the talent nor the depth that Ash supplied the franchise with (and, in fact, continues to supply it with). The problem is, some of the best prospects he has drafted fit into that same middling category.

Sorry, I'll say it again. I agreed with that part of your argument. JP has failed to produce top prospects. See... I agreed again. I took another part of your argument and discussed it in a different context. No need to get defensive about the whole thing.

Come on. This argument gets thrown about time after time after time. Ash, as assistant gm, was obviously allowed input into hirings. He did negotiating for the team. He retained these scouts in key positions. I guess we also shoudln't credit Gillick, since it was all the csouts... who he hired

This argument gets thrown about all the time? Well... did you stop to think it might be for a good reason.

Who were the key cogs in Ash's scouting and player development departments. Probably Tim Wilken, Jim Hughes, Wayne Morgan, Joe Ford and maybe Bobby Mattick. How many of those people were brought in and groomed under Gillick long before Ash was even assistant GM? How many?

All of them.


Ash, to his credit, kept them aboard. He wisely made Tim Wilken head of the scouting department shortly after he took over as GM. But Gillick had already set the wheels in motion..

Which is why I said, and I repeat: A lot of the top-level talent drafted during the Ash regime is part of Gillick's legacy.

That's all. Its entirely possible to commend Gillick for building this organization from the ground up without discrediting Ash.


And then, yeah. JP screwed it all up in order to set the organization "on track" with his own "program". That was probably his biggest mistake yet.

[ws1992]

I agree completely with mbow. Ash was part of the Jays organization for a long time, so he had history with the scouts that he kept on when he became GM. Also, Ash had every opportunity to fire those guys if he wanted to (like Ricciardi did), but he didn’t. He kept most of them on and allowed them to do what they do best. That’s the sign of good management. He understood that he had an advantage due to great scouting, and he didn’t purge the entire staff just to soothe his own ego. Ash had his faults as a general manager, but he also had his strengths, and (I can’t believe I’m saying this) he’s shown more aptitude for the GM position than Ricciardi has shown me. Ash’s teams were a lot closer to the playoffs than Ricciardi’s teams have been (despite bad ownership in the latter part of the ‘90’s) and seemingly had a blue chip prospect on the horizon every year. Ash was a lot more decisive with his trade deadline decision making as well (purged salary in 1998, added Segui for nothing in 1999, added Loaiza/Trachsel in 2000).

Seriously, name me one thing Ricciardi does that is significantly greater than Ash? Name one cheap “Moneyball” type free agent that Ricciardi has signed that was remarkably better “bang for the buck” than Ash had with Jose Canseco in 1998 and Frank Castillo in 2000? You won’t find one. Frank Catalanotto was probably Ricciardi’s best FA pick, and Ash’s cheap acquisition of Tony Fernandez in 1998 blows that out of the water. Name one Ricciardi draft pick that is better than Ash’s “reach due to budget constraints” first round pick of Alex Rios? You won’t find one. Money management? You think Ash wasn’t working with a budget during the latter part of the ‘90’s? He made poor financial moves (Mondesi, Hamilton, etc), but he was absolutely working with a budget. Just like Ricciardi. By 2000, the Blue Jays had the 21st highest payroll in baseball. What got Ash fired was when he wasted the extra $30 million of payroll Rogers gave him (sad note: Paul Godfrey was the one who took over negotiations with Alex Gonzalez that year, which lead to signing Gonzalez to an asinine contract….and that “smooth negotiator” is still in the organization handing out five year deals to J.P. Ricciardi).

This is sad. I’m defending Gord Ash, who was overall a mediocre GM, because the guy the team hired afterwards was no better. Five years of treading water. Guys like myself, Broadway, mbow, etc, are frustrated because the franchise has not progressed despite a change in management. Some would argue it’s gotten worse with the farm system and reputation as a whole. Why should we celebrate (and be apologists for) mediocrity? I want the team to succeed as much as anyone, but I’m not going to sit here and praise the general manager for being below average just because he’s the GM of the team I root for. My head is too big to wear rose colored glasses.

[MLBJB]

I don't have time to post a big message but after reading what went down last night, Gibbons must be fired right away. He won't because he is a friend of Riccardi's and that is a darn shame. He has lost the room and the huge drop in play proves that. Gibbons, IMO, has been a poor manager from the start and I've called for his head many times. He is not the kind of manager contending teams have at their helm.

This is just such an awful mark that is being left on this team which has damaged our reputation around the league.

And now we cannot even trade Lilly for anything, we had a chance to get something for him at the deadline and save some money. But Riccardi did nothing as usual, now we lose him for nothing which hurts especially after this.

Words cannot describe how messed up and screwed up JP/Gibbons have made this team. Both should be exed if there is any justice in the world.

I am afraid of 2007! Riccardi has maxed out the payroll so how can this team even improve or plug holes? Unless Billionaire Ted gives us more money, doubtful, Riccardi has screwed this team up beyond belief.

[manuel 3:16]

My head is too big to wear rose colored glasses.

I agree with some of what you said, ws92, but comparing what Ash did when he took over to what Ricciardi did doesn't really make any sense.

When Gillick left we still had Beeston around. Ash wasn't exactly in a position to start firing people left and right. Ricciardi did it so that he could bring in his own people. Ash didn't have his own people. His people were Gillick's people. As I said, most of the key people were with the organization since the late 1970s, long before Ash was given any real responsibility. So he doesn't deserve much credit for assembling that staff either.

Obviously, we'd be better off if JP had the presence of mind to keep the right people around. As I've said multiple times in this thread already, the most unforgiveable thing JP had done was disassembling that group of scouts. At the time, I'm sure many of the posters here would have argued that it was necessary... time to get rid of the old guard and bring in the new Billy Beane protege moneyball guys and sabermetricians.

Now that it looks like JP has failed we've resorted to... praising Gord Ash... sad times indeed.

[captainbolduke]

I am moving Mookies post to this thread and closing the other one

RICCIARDI: GIBBONS' JOB SAFE
Jeff Blair, today at 3:10 PM EDT

J.P. Ricciardi gave Toronto Blue Jays manager John Gibbons an unequivocal vote of confidence Tuesday afternoon, even while acknowledging that he expected pressure to fire Gibbons following the manager's second altercation in a month with a player.
"I'm sure there will be pressure on me," Ricciardi, the Blue Jays general manager, said Tuesday. "But I'm not firing John Gibbons. We have a very good manager, here. If we did fire him, there'd be five teams lined up for him.
"I still think we can salvage a very good year. I really do."
Gibbons, who challenged Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in the Blue Jays clubhouse on July 19 in an incident that set the stage for Hillenbrand's trade to the San Francisco Giants, confronted pitcher Ted Lilly in the tunnel between the dugout and clubhouse Monday night after Lilly argued with him and bumped him when Gibbons came out to remove Lilly from the game in the third inning. Both sides were contrite after the game, but Ricciardi was unavailable for comment after leaving his pressbox suite following a discussion with Blue Jays president and chief executive officer Paul Godfrey. Ricciardi was understandably livid after seeing his team blow an 8-0 lead en route to a 12-10 loss to the Oakland Athletics.
Like Godfrey, Ricciardi said he viewed the run-in with Lilly as different than the set to with Hillenbrand.
Lilly is eligible for free agency this winter and has already intimated that he wants to sign with either the Athletics or Giants, but would settle for pitching elsewhere in California. Sources in New York say that Lilly has also attracted the interest of the New York Mets in recent days as they look to bolster their starting pitching for a post-season run.

[MLBJB]

Gibbons job safe?!?!?!?!?! JP is pathetic!