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Post by mookie52 on Aug 21, 2006 20:25:14 GMT -5
Gibbons to be dismissed after tonight's game --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no way he keeps his job after this. JP has no other option but to discuss Gibbons after this game
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 20:27:52 GMT -5
No. You're wrong. You just want that because all your posts are about firing Gibbons or JP (agree with that one).
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Post by firstrounder on Aug 21, 2006 20:31:32 GMT -5
I want Gibby gone. He's clearly lost this team
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:14:11 GMT -5
Too bad the next choice of manager will be JP's as well....
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Post by bigbadbluebird on Aug 21, 2006 21:39:50 GMT -5
Too bad the next choice of manager will be JP's as well.... So? Any manager under JP will be his choice. Whining about the GM at every turn wont change the fact that he is the GM.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 21:46:38 GMT -5
As a passionate Jays fan I reserve the right to complain about that moron until he's gone. He's ruining this franchise.
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Post by mookie52 on Aug 21, 2006 21:50:08 GMT -5
BroadwayJoe2,
You are definitely one of the most knowledgeable Jay posters and as usual you have this issue read correctly. If Gibbons is not done after tonight, then Godfrey will dismiss both JP and Gibbons. The team can not play under Gibbons anymore after this incident.
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 21:57:47 GMT -5
You have no idea what you're talking about. Marty York? is that you?
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Post by mookie52 on Aug 21, 2006 21:59:57 GMT -5
*personal attack removed*
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 22:01:07 GMT -5
BURN
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Post by martinthegreat on Aug 21, 2006 22:02:22 GMT -5
Maybe he was so angry because he is indeed Marty York... hmm
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:03:58 GMT -5
Exactly...
The point is that Gibbons has lost the clubhouse.
People can claim whatever they want about Shea and Lilly, however the reality is that those guys DID have friends in the clubhouse. Those people have likely lost most of their confidence in Gibbons and most likely their respect for him.
The apologists will continue to blame the players but these incidents are just a symptom of the disease.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:05:08 GMT -5
C'mon guys...
Take it easy...
This isn't Scout.
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Post by bigbadbluebird on Aug 21, 2006 22:07:38 GMT -5
As a passionate Jays fan I reserve the right to complain about that moron until he's gone. He's ruining this franchise. He's done no worse than Gord Ash ever did. JP has simply been more of the same. Also yes, I will blame the players, because they very clearly deserve blame. I find it comical to call people Gibbons apologists when apologizing for Hillenbrand and Lilly. There are no innocent parties here.
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Post by captainbolduke on Aug 21, 2006 22:12:10 GMT -5
Missed my first chance to "moderate" by one minute....
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mbow30
Registered Member
Posts: 25
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Post by mbow30 on Aug 21, 2006 22:15:26 GMT -5
You can't pick fights with your players in the middle of the game. What the hell is that?
He most certainly has done worse than Gord Ash ever did. Aside from the fact that the Blue Jays routinely finished with a +.500 record under Ash, they also drafted and signed a plethora of talented youngsters--players who continue to pop up throughout the organization amongst the team's top prospects. The drafting and player development isn't even close to being comparable. Riccardi inherited a system with two future Cy Young winners, a talented #2 starter, an all-star short stop, another gold glove winning short stop, a gold glove winning all star centre fielder, a right fielder who just made the 2006 all star team, one of the best hitters in the league in Delgado (still in his prime), a gold glove second baseman... and that isn't even including a 2005 ROY candidate in Chacin, Davis Romero, McGowan, Reed Johnson amongst others. In this respect, Riccardi doesn't even come close to touching the former managmenet.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:20:28 GMT -5
As a passionate Jays fan I reserve the right to complain about that moron until he's gone. He's ruining this franchise. He's done no worse than Gord Ash ever did. JP has simply been more of the same. Also yes, I will blame the players, because they very clearly deserve blame. I find it comical to call people Gibbons apologists when apologizing for Hillenbrand and Lilly. There are no innocent parties here. C'mon Keith.... 'he's done no worse' I don't want a guy who isn't doing worse than Ash.... I want a GOOD GM. As I stated in the other thread (and I believe this one too) Lilly and Hillenbrand may be massive jerks, but the point is that there is a continuing pattern that shows Gibbons is unable to effectively manage situations like we've seen tonight. Add that to the Bush incident last year, and the alleged desire of Wells to jump ship, and I think you have a pretty solid case that Gibbons isn't the guy to lead this team anywhere. It's the whole 'where's there's smoke there's fire' argument... At this point, it doesn't matter if he's fired now or at the end of the season, but he has to go. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to have to suffer another season of JP, but at some point the mountain of mistakes he's committed during his tenure is going to going to be too high for anyone to ignore.
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Post by manuel 3:16 on Aug 21, 2006 22:23:48 GMT -5
It's pretty early in JP's term to call him out for not producing the likes of Chacin, Romero, McGowan and Reed.
When Ash left, where were any of those players? Rookie ball? A-? You could come back in 5 years and tear a strip off the next GM with exactly the same post. Players like that take YEARS to develop.
I'd agree that JP's draft and development history leaves a lot to be desired, but you shouldn't assume that the entire lower minors is devoid of players who will make the same impact as some of those guys.
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Post by ws1992 on Aug 21, 2006 22:33:19 GMT -5
As a passionate Jays fan I reserve the right to complain about that moron until he's gone. He's ruining this franchise. Exactly. I remember people even sticking up for Gord Ash during the latter part of his tenure. After he got fired, those same apologists started bashing Ash. It will happen with Ricciardi too. Hopefully sooner than later. People are just in denial because they want the team to succeed. Once the problem (Ricciardi) is gone, the same people defending him will be bashing him and looking down on his tenure.
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Post by bigbadbluebird on Aug 21, 2006 22:33:53 GMT -5
I agree completely about Gibbons, Broadway, but I am not going to apologize for the players.
As far as JP goes, I dont recall any of these dire "the franchise is doomed" or "JP will set this team back ten years" exaggerations at any point in the Ash years. Lets keep a sense of perspective here.
JP has been a giant disapointment. He's almost certantly going to be gone after next season. But in the grand scheme of things, he's just been another lackluster GM. He is not the devil, despite what some here evidently believe.
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Post by willrain on Aug 21, 2006 22:35:47 GMT -5
Quote:
He's ruining this franchise.
One Quibble:
The Belgians "ruined the franchise"
JP, at his worst, is simply failing to recover the magic we once enjoied. But you can't ruin that which was already a train-wreck.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:38:06 GMT -5
JP = Beelzebub
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:42:10 GMT -5
Quote: He's ruining this franchise. One Quibble: The Belgians "ruined the franchise" JP, at his worst, is simply failing to recover the magic we once enjoied. But you can't ruin that which was already a train-wreck. I don't know how long you can blame Gord Ash and the failings of Interbrew for the current condition of the Jays. We're 5+ years on, and this team seems to be (more or less) in the same position as it was when the Interbrew junta sold the team. So if you want to quibble and say he didn't 'ruin' the franchise, that's fine.... however I thought he was hired to return this team to the playoffs and it seems to me we're no closer after 5 years of his management. The pipeline of talent isn't as full as when he came on board, and he's traded Delgado's unmanageable contract for AJ Burnetts (except Delgado was twice the player AJ is or ever will be). Sigh... I'm so depressed with this garbage
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mbow30
Registered Member
Posts: 25
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Post by mbow30 on Aug 21, 2006 22:47:21 GMT -5
You can't argue against my point by totally disregaridng the crux of the argument.
Moreover, Riccardi has had plenty of time to begin producing organizational depth; five years to be exact. He has added some mediocre depth amongst the pitching ranks--drafting, almost exclusively, university-aged players who shouldn't need more than two or three years to develop. We have Aaron Hill to show for. He has had plenty of time and while I'm sure some diamonds in the rough will be uncovered at some point down the line, it still doesn't address the incredible lack of top-end talent--something Ash produced consistently and in abundance.
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Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 21, 2006 22:54:27 GMT -5
Now we get to hear how it wasn't Ash who was responsible for that talent... it was the scouting staff.
Which of course JP fired....
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