|
Post by broadwayjoe2 on Aug 17, 2006 8:22:26 GMT -5
Good thing our GM has decided to increase the Bosox payroll for next year! Funny how JP's mind works.... he complains about value and how every nickel counts for a couple of years, and then he just throws money out the window.
How much are we paying players in order to play for other teams now? I bet it's enough to acquire a pretty nice little SP or 2B......
So Hinske (after 3 years of sucking) finally starts to hit a little and our mighty GM can't even get the Bosox to pick up his remaining salary.
Yikes.... I would have been happier to see him move for NOTHING and his salary completely absorbed by the Sox.
Instead we'll probably get a C level prospect with a less than 5% chance of making the majors and we'll get to pay half of Hinske's salary next year...... Nice.
and people still defend this moron..... It blows my mind.
|
|
|
Post by 85Jays on Aug 17, 2006 8:27:29 GMT -5
Me too ... but I don't think the Red Sox make that deal. In fact, I suspect the PTBNL will, essentially, be that nothing you speak of. Either a b-level prospect, or one of those phantom PTBNL's that never end up being named.
The trade itself was a good one. It was necessitated by a bad contract -- that's where the blame should go. The same guy is responsible for that contract ... so there's no real "JP defence" that has credibility here ... But the trade is pretty much the best we could do to deal with that bad contract.
|
|
|
Post by captainbolduke on Aug 17, 2006 8:34:46 GMT -5
Guys.... it's ERIC HINSKE.... you guys can't seriously be blinded by the 172 at bats, 264.ave he has put up this year.
|
|
|
Post by bluejayslee on Aug 17, 2006 8:40:10 GMT -5
So it looks like we save 4.2M in the Hinske deal. Decent chunk of change to use next season. I wonder if there's any takers on Molina. Bengie's been pretty hot with the bat lately.
|
|
|
Post by firstrounder on Aug 17, 2006 8:43:28 GMT -5
Hinske wasnt a bad deal this season.
Platooned with a cheap guy like Cuddyer who kills lefties, we could have had a .950 OPS platoon at DH/RF (Hinske has a .951 OPS vs RH this year, Cuddyer has a .961 OPS vs LH this year)
I would rather keep Hinske, who has been raking the Sox this year, and platoon him with a guy like Cuddyer or Lind next year.
We would have had a .900+ OPS RF for a very reasonable price.
|
|
|
Post by ws1992 on Aug 17, 2006 8:46:41 GMT -5
I didn't hate Hinske either. I actually liked Hinske more than Hillenbrand (words cannot describe how stupid keeping Shea was this year). This trade will hurt the Blue Jays if they don’t add another hitter who can hit righties next year. Wells, Rios, Glaus, Johnson, and Hill is a righty dependent lineup. Overbay is really the only deviation from that. I guess they can plug in Lind to fill an outfield or DH spot, but he’s not the guaranteed .800+ OPS against RHP that Hinske was. Chances are, that’s a downgrade next year. If the team plans on re-signing Catalanotto, it will cost $3 million or more. In that case, why not just keep Hinske? Cat for $3 million + $2.8 million paid to the Red Sox for Hinske will equal more than the team would of paid Hinske alone. It wouldn’t make any sense (though that hasn’t stopped Ricciardi before).
This saves the team about $4.0 million, and along with Schoeneweis, that should be close to $5.0 million combined saved for next year. Hopefully Molina is sent out as well. However, I don’t know if that’s nearly enough to make the necessary improvements. It’s not like the Blue Jays traded these guys for cheap plug-ins for next year (WHICH IS WHAT I SUGGESTED A LONG TIME AGO!). They were traded for salary relief and crap. So the Blue Jays will still have to spend that money on improvements for next year, and the team needs far too much improvement for that money to be completely useful. Is that money going to get a pitcher of Lilly’s quality? At least one catcher better than Molina/Zaun? A set-up man the quality of Speier? Now, if Lilly were traded for a catcher, Speier for a starter, etc (for example), then the team wouldn’t be in as much trouble trying to find capable bodies to fill holes. Too late for that.
It’s mind boggling how a guy who came in to be a financially responsible/creative general manager is paying $10 million for Hinske ($2.8), Koskie (~$3.85 million), and Towers ($2.9 million) to NOT play for the Blue Jays. Add the $3.4 million he paid Koch and Ligtenberg to not play for the Blue Jays in 2005, and that’s just scratching the surface on his blunders.
|
|
satyr9
Registered Member
Posts: 19
|
Post by satyr9 on Aug 17, 2006 9:15:40 GMT -5
If all this does is create enough salary flexibility so we can keep Catalanotto instead of having Hinske, then I'm all for it. I wish we weren't paying half his salary (anyone have a source on this BTW), but aren't people always complaining that JP doesn't sell high? Hinske at the beginning of the year was 100% completely and utterly untradeable. He has a decent season, but hardly enough ABs to say he's okay now and we get rid of a big chunk of change.
I hate how much we'll be paying players to play elsewhere next year, but it's the original signing of Hinske that sucks, not this deal (at least for me). Say there's at least a 3 million dollar total savings on this deal. IMO there are 3 million dollar players that can contribute to this team more than Hinske (now you have to trust the GM to find that player for the logic to hold up so I understand if some are sceptical). If he pulls that off, then for me it's a good deal. Not trying to drink the JP kool-aid or anything, I just fail to see how trading Hinske's deal could ever be a bad thing, unless it was a move that actually ended up taking back a bigger ticket guy who's one-dimensional at best and could just plain suck.
|
|
|
Post by wilsonc on Aug 17, 2006 9:30:23 GMT -5
If Hinske was a free agent right now, would you be in favor of signing him for about 4M through the end of next year? That's the main consideration as to whether this is a good trade, assuming the PTBNL is nothing of worth. That we're paying a portion of his salary indicates a bad signing in the first place, but it needs to be written off as a sunk cost when evaluating the trade in and of itself.
|
|
|
Post by captainbolduke on Aug 17, 2006 10:48:35 GMT -5
4 Million dollar bench player.... i'd pass
You could probably get Frank Thomas for that kinda money
|
|
|
Post by bluejayslee on Aug 17, 2006 12:50:41 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by firstrounder on Aug 17, 2006 13:07:01 GMT -5
Hattig? He of the monster .735 OPS at AAA?
Oh god. We are so reaching
|
|
|
Post by Awesomeness Reeker on Aug 17, 2006 14:30:37 GMT -5
It's Boston. It's Epstein. Some of you are honestly surprised by a ridiculous trade like this?
The guy has been angling for a BoSox job for a couple of years.
|
|
|
Post by 85Jays on Aug 17, 2006 14:42:30 GMT -5
I think it's quite a stretch to suggest this is a kissing-up trade. I'd also say it's a stretch to call it a "ridiculous" trade. But it certainly has nothing to do with wanting a job with the Red Sox ... If he wanted a job with the Sox, it's unlikely he would have signed with the Jays through 2010. I'd have to see some evidence of "angling" for a BoSox job before I bought into that theory. Is there anything you can point to that would serve as evidence of this angling?
|
|
|
Post by Awesomeness Reeker on Aug 17, 2006 15:09:05 GMT -5
The old/new A's network holds offices in many places. He was campaigning for the job before they hired Epstein and Beane is as good as a gold standard in Oakland. In the 4 years he's been here, he's learned his role in things. He's still probably got a decent eye for talent, but in management? Piss-poor at best, so he'll be needing a job, and where else but Boston or Oakland? Are you saying anyone would hire him again in this role? I sure as hell hope not.
While he was forced out, the Jays would have been best served by staying the course with Tim Johnson -- by far the best season they've had since the glory years.
|
|
|
Post by 85Jays on Aug 17, 2006 15:23:59 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what this means ... there aren't A's connections with the Red Sox. Epstein was never with the A's. He was with the Padres before coming to Boston. There isn't a network connection in Boston.
He talked to them about the job during the 2002 season. He signed a contract extension with the Jays before the season ended. (A few months later, the Sox hired Epstein.)
There are a lot of places for him to go. But you haven't shown any evidence of him "angling" for a job. He talked to Boston once ... and since then has twice signed contract extensions with the Jays.
He might, he might not. GMs of all abilities get re-hired. But that's not the issue ... I've only asked for some evidence that he's been angling for a job with the Red Sox for years. You haven't provided anything except your own speculation, and the fact that he once talked to the Red Sox -- four years ago. And as I said, his two subsequent contract extensions with the Jays suggest that his interest in joining the Sox wasn't as keen as some made it out to be at the time. There doesn't appear to be any substance to your earlier comment.
I'm not sure what Tim Johnson has to do with any of this. Johnson was a manager for one season, years before Ricciardi arrived. Could you explain what point you're making? It looks like a bit of a non sequitur without some explanation.
|
|
|
Post by Awesomeness Reeker on Aug 17, 2006 15:36:52 GMT -5
I thought I had heard Beane speak of him highly as though he was quite familiar with his skills, but on that, I could be wrong.
And this is ethical behaviour in your opinion? Even with Jays consent?
His moves tend to speak for themselves as using this franchise as a means to get anywhere but here....as far as his contract extensions go, ugh don't remind me.
It was an aside, to point to evidence that Gord Ash for all his failings may have been onto something with Johnson before the Vietnam thing was blown out of proportion. A lie can still be a motivating tool to help players perform and teams win and so far those 88 wins are a mark that the Nose is nowhere close to producing. I happen to like Gibbons but as I said at the beginning of the season on the Leafs board, I failed to see the excitement around a team that would struggle to win 85 games at best.
|
|
|
Post by 85Jays on Aug 17, 2006 15:47:30 GMT -5
I thought I had heard Beane speak of him highly as though he was quite familiar with his skills, but on that, I could be wrong. I'm sure he has, but that doesn't make Epstein part of some network, so I don't see how it serves your argument. Sure. Are you saying you've never interviewed for a job while working somewhere else? Because that's what we're talking about. People interview for jobs all the time while employed elsewhere. In fact, doing it with an employer's consent is downright honorable, if a little foolish. But I'm not sure what your point is ... we haven't been discussing whether JP is ethical or not, I was only asking for evidence that JP is has been angling for a job with Boston for a couple of years. How do you mean? Are you saying he makes deals to get himself fired? I'd certainly question his ethics if he were doing that. But if someone is making bad deals, I think that's evidence of being a bad GM, not trying to get himself fired so he can work somewhere else. [/quote]Well, Ash fired Johnson. But the aside has nothing to do with the current discussion, or for that matter any discussion that has ever taken place on this board, so perhaps it's best to drop it entirely or start a new thread about re-hiring Tim Johnson.
|
|
|
Post by gojays2007 on Aug 17, 2006 16:04:58 GMT -5
so who is ugly and who is sparty?
|
|
|
Post by 85Jays on Aug 17, 2006 16:07:58 GMT -5
I'm just re-reading this point again, and referring back to your earlier post I think I know what you're saying: that he makes a deal like this to ingratiate himself with teams so that he can get a job later on.
If that's what you're saying, it gets into a bit of a circular argument. Your original point was that the Hinske deal was made because JP has been angling for a job with Boston for a couple of years, so if the supporting evidence is to repeat that he makes deals to get another job, we're back where we started. Except that in order to establish that he does this to get a job with Boston, we'd need to look at other deals he's made with the Red Sox, and that's where we'd come up short. We'd have more luck suggesting he was bucking to replace Gord Ash for a second time, this time in Milwaukee ... but that would also be reckless speculation.
Anyway ... the point of questioning you on this was to see if there was evidence for what you were saying about the "angling for a job", or if it was your personal theory, and it appears to be the latter. And that's fine. Everyone's entitled to a theory. But without any evidence beyond what we've discussed I can't buy into that theory. Given that, and barring any other supporting evidence for the theory, I suspect we've taken this as far as we can go.
|
|
jon
Registered Member
Posts: 41
|
Post by jon on Aug 17, 2006 16:29:17 GMT -5
and so far those 88 wins are a mark that the Nose is nowhere close to producing. We're on pace for 86.something wins, by the end of the week we could be on pace for 88. Whoop de doo
|
|
|
Post by willrain on Aug 18, 2006 21:51:11 GMT -5
Just as an aside....I REALLY have a lot of trouble assigning credibility to the opinions of folks who can't express those opinions in terms that don't stoop to 3rd grade school-yard insults about people's apperance......
Any anti-JP post, no matter how well reasoned, which contains a dig about the size of the man's nose automaticlly gets shuffled into the "childish nonsense" folder by my brain before it really has a chance to be taken seriously.
YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by TheGreenHornet on Aug 19, 2006 10:52:16 GMT -5
Hinske is what he is. An overpayed platoon player. Nothing wrong with that but certainly not a player you are going lose sleep over after having dealt. I really don't like the fact that we had to pick up as much salary as we did. But it gives us some much needed financial flexibilty in the offseason. From Boston's perspective I actually really like what they are getting. Hinkse used right at about 3 million a season is a quality bench player
|
|
|
Post by gojays2007 on Aug 19, 2006 19:21:17 GMT -5
What is worse? Getting 3M of production out of Hinske but paying him 6M or Getting 0 production from him and paying him 3M (while he goes to a team in the division)?
|
|